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Has Tiaa Traditional Invested in Freddie and Fannie ?
Theramus 09-07-2008, 10:14 PM | Post #2559256 |  12 Replies
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Does anyone have information available on whether, and if so the the extent to which, the Tiaa Traditional fund retains common stock, preferred stock, bonds or any other type of  investment/interest in  Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, or Ginne Mae ?

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Re: Has Tiaa Traditional Invested in Freddie and Fannie ?
crefwatch 09-08-2008, 11:25 AM | Post #2559391
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I presume you're aware that there is no Net Asset Value for a TIAA Traditional Account. In other words, the value of securities in the General Account of TIAA (the big insurance company) does not directly affect your account value (which the company [but not the government...] guarantees will not decline), nor their promise that you will never earn less than 3% during the accumulation phase of your account.

I suppose there is a distant chance that bad investments could affect future interest rate announcements for TIAA Traditional, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Unlike the CREF annuities and the Institutional Mutual Funds, there is no requirement to report the specific securities in the General Account. Because it appears that the Mae/Mac bonds will not fail to be honored, let me speculate only on the issues of their preferred and common stocks in the General Account.

The most recent financial statement (.pdf LINK, December 31, 2007) shows about 4% of the account in common and preferred stocks (that is, stocks of every company in which they invest.) It's just inconceivable to me that such a large and diversified account would have even 1% of it's stocks in those two companies. Why do I make that unsupported statement?

Because the CREF Stock Account, which is the same order of magnitude (but smaller) in assets, and VERY large-cap oriented, has only three stocks in which more than 1% of the account is invested (Exxon Mobil. GE. and Microsoft, if you are interested.) There's no reason I can see why the General Account would do such a thing.

Now, 1% of 4% is .04%. And I feel confident that it's even less than that. So when and if they issue a report on the topic (I mean, like the reports (LINK to example) they've published on asset-backed bonds), I wouldn't worry too much. It is interesting that that link says (June 30, 2008):

Commercial mortgage-backed securities holdings represent approximately 12 percent of the General Account's holdings. Our CMBS portfolio emphasizes high-quality issues that are diversified across various dates of issue. Since the beginning of 2007, CMBS realized losses have totaled $16 million (less than one-hundredth of 1 percent of the General Account's total assets).

which is part of the answer to your larger question. This paragraph is not as reassuring as the rest of this post! But the whole point of the endless posts you read here about lower interest rates for SRA/GSRA accounts, and annuitization penalties for flipping your TIAA Traditional is that they don't have to realize losses on these bonds. They can wait until they mature and probably get the full face value!

Tim

Edit: I should have thought to look this up before: Neither on December 31, 2007, nor on June 30, 2008 did the CREF Stock Account have any reportable quantity of common or preferred shares in a company with the word "Federal" at the beginning of the name. And (especially if you're cynical...) you have to assume that the analysts' advice - either for investment or for "window dressing" - would be taken for TIAA's own account, before they took it for our account! I did see some AIG there though ....

But I acknowledge again that I haven't answered your specific question, because it cannot be determined from publicly available documents.
 

Re: Has Tiaa Traditional Invested in Freddie and Fannie ?
Theramus 09-08-2008, 11:06 PM | Post #2559623
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Tim,

Thanks. You provide much to think on. Even with the limited data available, this considered response is  useful to me and probably anyone else who takes the time to read it. I can not be the only account holder who has begun to wonder as they observe the unfolding saga of the twin GSE collapse.

I won't be loosing sleep over this, but may give up some tomorrow morning when our cat gets me up to feed him.

Rob

 

Re: Has Tiaa Traditional Invested in Freddie and Fannie ?
uphaus 09-09-2008, 5:09 AM | Post #2559650
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First, you shouldn't lump together the equity and the fixed income of FNM and FRE.  Those holding the fixed income (such as PIMCO) are and will be fine.  It's the equity holders of FNM and FRE whose positions are likely to be wiped out.

As for who the largest equity holders are, well here's a list from Yahoo finance.

First, FNM:  http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=FNM

Second, FRE: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=FRE

Unfortunately, it appears a number of "investors" don't understand the order of priority in the kind of situation we are witnessing with FNM and FRE.  It's the equity holders who are likely to lose their shirts because they don't stand anywhere near the front of the line.

I can't explain it any more succinctly than Rich Bernstein (Navigate the Noise--a must-read for informed investors).  To quote Bernstein:

"Stocks are a partial ownership in the assets of a company.  Bonds are loans in which the assets of the borrowing company are used as collateral.  If the company goes out of business, it is the bond holders who have claim to the assets of the company.  The stockholders have claim only to the residual assets of the firm."

Bob U.

 

Re: Has Tiaa Traditional Invested in Freddie and Fannie ?
Theramus 09-09-2008, 7:48 AM | Post #2559669
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Dear Bob U,

Thanks. If one didn't understand before, the twin GSE collapse makes the perils of investor preference all to clear.

 The fundamental question on the TIAA trad remains clouded all the same. It seems to me to center on whether GSE debt is held. The situation for bond holders in Mac/Mae appears to be safe for now, but even the mighty eventually have to obey the laws of nature.

Rob

Re: Has Tiaa Traditional Invested in Freddie and Fannie ?
ats5g 09-10-2008, 4:14 PM | Post #2560248
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According to TIAA's 12/31/07 financials, 17.2% of assets are in residential mortgage bonds, and 11.2% are in commercial mortgage bonds.

I took a quick peak at the statement of assets on 12/31/07, available at here.  Most of the residential mortgage bonds are from Freddie and Fannie.  Unfortunately, there was no quick way to cut and paste so, I just eye balled it.  So, probably about 12-16% of TIAAs assets are in Fannie and Freddie mortgage bonds.

Re: Has Tiaa Traditional Invested in Freddie and Fannie ?
uphaus 09-10-2008, 5:00 PM | Post #2560274
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Delightful information posted by Alec re Fannie and Freddie bonds.  It means TIAA made a killing.

Bill Gross has been buying those bonds with a vengeance since the beginning of the year, for which he received this blazing headline in today's Financial Times.   http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1fc4be26-7ecf-11dd-b1af-000077b07658.html

A profit of $1.7 billion in a day ain't bad. :-)  (Besides, his bond fund is kicking the daylights out of its benchmark--not for the first time.)   Bob U.

Re: Has Tiaa Traditional Invested in Freddie and Fannie ?
uphaus 09-11-2008, 5:44 AM | Post #2560439
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A little follow-up to my previous post.  Never confuse debt with equity.

Fannie Mae had a record sale of two-year debt yesterday.  http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINN1043925120080910?rpc=44

Hopefully, both TIAA and Bill Gross (PIMCO) and their respective shareholders were once again rewarded by being able to separate the wheat from the chaff.  Bob U.

Re: Has Tiaa Traditional Invested in Freddie and Fannie ?
Therramus 09-11-2008, 7:46 AM | Post #2560469
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Sir,

You are among the most useful of persons....a bearer of light . Many thanks ats5g.

Rob

Re: Has Tiaa Traditional Invested in Freddie and Fannie ?
crefwatch 09-12-2008, 7:35 PM | Post #2561087
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Well, I'm keeping my wife company at an alumnae conference at Smith today,  but Bob U. was kind enought (related thread) to keep track of the pretty prompt press release regarding TIAA-CREF exposure to Fannie and Freddie: LINK  My speculative analysis was close enough:

  • TIAA-CREF's exposure to the common and preferred stock of the two companies totaled about $337 million as of July 31, 2008. This represents a very small portion (less than one-tenth of one percent) of the more than $420 billion in assets that TIAA-CREF had under management as of that date.
  • TIAA-CREF's exposure to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac bonds and mortgage-backed securities totaled about $36 billion on July 31. The takeover gives these securities an additional degree of protection by the U.S. Treasury and thereby enhances their credit quality

I'm only posting here to complete the message thread started by the OP, for future reference.

Tim 

Re: Has Tiaa Traditional Invested in Freddie and Fannie ?
uphaus 09-13-2008, 6:29 AM | Post #2561192
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And the Financial Times has even more to say today about just how big a bet Bill Gross made (and won) on the very same bonds TIAA owns.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8e2b8874-80ee-11dd-82dd-000077b07658.html

Bob U. 

Re: Has Tiaa Traditional Invested in Freddie and Fannie ?
ats5g 09-13-2008, 7:21 AM | Post #2561212
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Looks like Gross had around $92 billion (70%) of Pimco's Total Return in Mortgage bonds [probably mostly Fannie and Freddie].

btw - my Vanguard TBM fund had around $25 billion (39%) in Fannie and Freddie mortgage bonds.

- Alec