Israel has a state of the art Army, Air Force, Navy complete with an arsenal of weapons including nuclear devices.

Israel alone defeated several Arab nations in the 7-Days War.

Israel alone bombed and destroyed the suspected nuclear facilities in Iraq.

Israel should be perfectly capable of defending herself against Iran, Syria or any other nation(s) in her neighborhood.

Certainly the United States is an ally of Israel's but like any other sovereign nation Israel should protect herself first before the United States or any other nations sheds its own lifes blood for her.

Thank you

Mr. Purrington

Careful, your ally pudman is going to correct your spelling of "live's" blood. He's a stickler for good English.

As far as your point, it's valid. However, it's been a long time since the Seven Day's War, and since then other conflicts have shown how vulnerable Israel is. The Yom Kippur War could have gone either way, and incursions into Lebanon have shown Israel no longer has the might to push their enemies around without paying a high price.

America will always defend herself first. Nonetheless, we will not ever allow the Arabs to overrun Israel. No more than we'd allow Russia to overrun Canada or China to overrun Australia. 

And BTW, America has no troops stationed in Israel, yet has thousands in the much more richer Germany. It would make sense to move all the troops in Germany to Israel, it would put them closer to our enemies. Although the Islamofascists would use it as a propaganda tool. 

We don't have to defend Israel. But the next time they are attacked, don't go whining when their Merkava tanks are rolling into Damascus like we did into Berlin.

Mark 

I do know we tend to support democracies, especially lone democracies in an area of dictatorships.

I know we have supported Israel over the year, while the Soviet Union supported Arab dictatorships over the years.

I think we should continue to support democracies which stand up to terrorists.

//mjs

We're now supporting both Israel and Iraq-- two bitter enemies. Strange, but true.

ML

[quote user="Governor"]

The people may still hate each other, 

 [/quote]

Thanks for confirming what I said.

We now support an Iraq controlled by elected officials who are controlled by Islamic religious leaders. The current man with the power is Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.

ML

[quote user="pudman"]"life"s blood" ( not live's blood ) would be correct as  it is preceded by the 3rd person singular possessive. Mark did indeed miss that nasty apostrophe. It is true that ever since I single handedly crushed Ebonics I have been on a mission to spread good grammar, spelling and writing to my under educated Caucasian hermanos/hermanas as well. We are all Yanks. Kumbaya, baby.[/quote]

If you are going to stand on your pedestal criticise, pudman, get it right. I never used the phrase.

Mark 

Sorry Mark, that was Mr. P who sinned. My apologies.

p.s.  "  to criticize " 

Sorry Mark, that was Mr. P who sinned. My apologies.

p.s.  "  to criticize " 

[/quote]

critic: One inclined to find fault.

Mark 

Israel alone defeated several Arab nations in the 7-Days War.

[/quote]

But they were precariously close to losing the 1973 war.  And they can only afford to lose one war.

[quote user="Mr. Purrington"]

Israel alone bombed and destroyed the suspected nuclear facilities in Iraq.

[/quote]

And they were condemned by the entire world for it.  (In hindsight, of course, they should have been awarded a Nobel Peace Prize.)

[quote user="Mr. Purrington"]

Certainly the United States is an ally of Israel's but like any other sovereign nation Israel should protect herself first before the United States or any other nations sheds its own lifes blood for her.

Israel has shed a lot of her own blood.   How many foreign soldiers have died on Israeli soil protecting Israel?

One good reason, as noted below, is that the US supports democracies.  That's a bulwark of US foreign policy (though admittedly it gets perverted routinely).   Another good reason is that the US supports countries which fight terrorism.  Yet another reason, perhaps, is akin to contrarian investing: virtually the entire world is against Israel, and where the United Nations is concerned, odds are that the majority is  almost always wrong.

Israel is more properly a Jewish State rather than a Democracy.

It is often forgotten that "terrorism" was an important component in the founding of Israel.

Irun and the Stern Gang in the 1940's used tactics similar to those used by Hamas and Hezbollah.

Among their more well know attacks are the bombing by Irgun of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on July 22, 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre (conducted by both Irgun an the Stern Gang on April 9, 1948.

Thank you

Mr. Purrington

Israel is more properly a Jewish State rather than a Democracy.

It is often forgotten that "terrorism" was an important component in the founding of Israel.

Irun and the Stern Gang in the 1940's used tactics similar to those used by Hamas and Hezbollah.

Among their more well know attacks are the bombing by Irgun of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on July 22, 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre (conducted by both Irgun an the Stern Gang on April 9, 1948.

Thank you

Mr. Purrington

[/quote]

You have left out a few details, Mr. Purrington. Israel was a British protectorate at the time, and Arab bombings and acts of terror were commonplace. Irgun began as a group to defend Israeli settlements from Arab acts of terror. In fact, their policy was one of reprisals, not of initiating violence. When the British approved the MacDonald White Paper in 1939, which severely restricted Jewish immigration and prevented the sale of land to Jews, Irgun began attacking the British. Menachem Begin was a leader of Irgun, and they did commit terrorist acts, but they were a small minority of Jews, and their tactics did not have widespread approval among the Jews. To compare Irgun and Hamas severely distorts reality and history. They are not comparable. The Jews in Palestine did not want to kill the Arabs, they wanted a state of their own and were willing to buy the land. They were prevented, not only from buying land, but could not immigrate from the holocaust in Europe to Palestine. Millions of Jews were being slaughtered in Europe and were not allowed to flee the mass killings. Palestine was never a country, it was a name given to an area of land designated under British control after the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, an area of land that had Jewish and Arab history going back to Biblical times. This is why Golda Meir said ":There is no such thing as a Palestinian people." The state of Israel was approved by the UN in response to the holocaust. It would never have gotten support if that had not happened. By the way, Israel's government is a parliamentary democracy and it allows freedom of religion.

Mark  

Israel is more properly a Jewish State rather than a Democracy.

It is often forgotten that "terrorism" was an important component in the founding of Israel.

Irun and the Stern Gang in the 1940's used tactics similar to those used by Hamas and Hezbollah.

Among their more well know attacks are the bombing by Irgun of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on July 22, 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre (conducted by both Irgun an the Stern Gang on April 9, 1948.

Thank you

Mr. Purrington

[/quote]

You have left out a few details, Mr. Purrington. Israel was a British protectorate at the time, and Arab bombings and acts of terror were commonplace. Irgun began as a group to defend Israeli settlements from Arab acts of terror. In fact, their policy was one of reprisals, not of initiating violence. When the British approved the MacDonald White Paper in 1939, which severely restricted Jewish immigration and prevented the sale of land to Jews, Irgun began attacking the British. Menachem Begin was a leader of Irgun, and they did commit terrorist acts, but they were a small minority of Jews, and their tactics did not have widespread approval among the Jews. To compare Irgun and Hamas severely distorts reality and history. They are not comparable. The Jews in Palestine did not want to kill the Arabs, they wanted a state of their own and were willing to buy the land. They were prevented, not only from buying land, but could not immigrate from the holocaust in Europe to Palestine. Millions of Jews were being slaughtered in Europe and were not allowed to flee the mass killings. Palestine was never a country, it was a name given to an area of land designated under British control after the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, an area of land that had Jewish and Arab history going back to Biblical times. This is why Golda Meir said ":There is no such thing as a Palestinian people." The state of Israel was approved by the UN in response to the holocaust. It would never have gotten support if that had not happened. By the way, Israel's government is a parliamentary democracy and it allows freedom of religion.

Mark  

[/quote]

Mr. P. left out more than a few details.   It's worth noting that Ben Gurion ordered the army to destroy Begin's ship, the Altalena, which was carrying weapons for the Irgun.   This suggests how the early Jewish state struggled with and responded to terrorist elements from within.   Menachem Begin later made peace with Sadat -- two former terrorists turned peacemakers.

Unfortunately, neither Arafat nor his successors are made of the same stuff as Sadat and Begin.   They have all lacked the courage to make peace.   Peace would threaten their personal power, the sustenance of which requires oppression and brutality, restricting access to information and education, and above all, maintaining an enemy to take the blame for every misfortune and misery.

No one has given a good reason why the US has to protect Israel.

I always thought that it was the Jewish Lobby in the US, that maintained this relation.

Check out the history of the area:  http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf

We protect Israel for the same reason we protect Germany, Italy, France, Australia, Poland, Taiwan, South Korea, etc., etc., etc.

We are the only people powerful enough to protect the trade lanes, democracy, freedom. It's not a role we set out to achieve, it came because our system works better than system ever invented by mankind and because God has blessed us more than any country in history.

With those blessings come responsibilities, whether we like it or not. And rest assured, most us don't like having such an awesome responsibility. 

Please re-read previous posts, maxim;  there have been several arguments why we SHOULD defend Israel (and I gave one or two previously).

//mjs

Maxim,

I agree with you.  No one has given a good reason why the US should protect Israel. I am concerned about the power of AIPAC has in Washington.  I am also concerned about the numerous Israeli spies that have stolen US secrets. Why should America be loyal to Israel .  They are not loyal to us.

[quote user="Hank"]Dear Mark,   Please skip the propoganda . By the way, Israel's governmnet is a parloamentary democracy?.?  When Israel gives the Palestinians the right to return and are allowed to form their own country than I consider Israel to be a true democracy. What you are telling us is forget about the Palestinians they do not exist. You Mark,  are truly prejudice. [/quote]

Get a grip, Hank. Hamas doesn't want the right to return to Israel, they want to destroy it. Israel would be insane to let them into their country.

Mark 

Mark.

I was not talking about Hamas. I was talking about the 90% of Palestinians who do not want to destroy Israel.  They just want to be treated as humans. I hope you do not have a problems with taht?   Remember their are some bad apples on all sides.

Mark.

I was not talking about Hamas. I was talking about the 90% of Palestinians who do not want to destroy Israel.  They just want to be treated as humans. I hope you do not have a problems with that ?   Remember their are some bad apples on all sides.

Mr. Purrington

You make some good points. There is a fine line between terrorists and freedom fighters. Most pro- Israel supporters think their founders of Israel where Freedom fighters.  Most Palestinians believe Hamas are freedom fighters.  I think there where plenty terrorists masquerading as freedom fighters in both camps.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. If 90% of Palestinians "only want peace" how can the majority support their so-called "freedom fighters"?

You seem to buy what you wish, ignoring facts. 

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. If 90% of Palestinians "only want peace" how can the majority support their so-called "freedom fighters"?

You seem to buy what you wish, ignoring facts. 

[/quote]

Indeed, Ted. Wasn't Hamas duly "elected" by the people? It doesn't matter, America is always the bad guy.

Mark 

Eagle Ted

You are right my statement was confusing.  I meant to say that the majority of the Palestinians voted for Hamas in a democratic election.  To them the alternative was worse.  I still believe 90% of Palestinians only want peace and be free.

I would like to believe that, Hank. Is there any evidence it's true?

As I see it, vengeance driven by hatred seems more important to the majority. Maybe I'm wrong, hopefully, I am.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NzU0ZDgzZmQ2NGVmM2Q3ODM1ZjQ1MWZiZmZhMjk3MzY=&w=MQ==

"Six months before Israel’s birth, the U.N. had decided by a two-thirds majority that the only just solution to the British departure from Palestine would be the establishment of a Jewish state and an Arab state side by side. The undeniable fact remains: The Jews accepted that compromise; the Arabs rejected it.

With a vengeance. On the day the British pulled down their flag, Israel was invaded by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan and Iraq — 650,000 Jews against 40 million Arabs.

Israel prevailed, another miracle. But at a very high cost — not just to the Palestinians displaced as a result of a war designed to extinguish Israel at birth, but also to the Israelis, whose war losses were staggering: 6,373 dead. One percent of the population. In American terms, it would take 35 Vietnam memorials to encompass such a monumental loss of life.

You rarely hear about Israel’s terrible suffering in that 1948-49 war. You hear only the Palestinian side. Today, in the same vein, you hear that Israeli settlements and checkpoints and occupation are the continuing root causes of terrorism and instability in the region.

But in 1948, there were no “occupied territories.” Nor in 1967 when Egypt, Syria and Jordan joined together in a second war of annihilation against Israel.

Look at Gaza today. No Israeli occupation, no settlements, not a single Jew left. The Palestinian response? Unremitting rocket fire killing and maiming Israeli civilians. The declared casus belli of the Palestinian government in Gaza behind these rockets? The very existence of a Jewish state.

Israel’s crime is not its policies but its insistence on living. On the day the Arabs — and the Palestinians in particular — make a collective decision to accept the Jewish state, there will be peace, as Israel proved with its treaties with Egypt and Jordan. Until that day, there will be nothing but war. And every “peace process,” however cynical or well-meaning, will come to nothing."

More propaganda...

Mark
 

Eagle Ted,

As I see it, most Palestinians have been kept behind walls for to many years. They would take peace over vengeance in a heart beat. I really believe strongly that peace would bring out the best of mankind.

Eagle Ted,

As I see it, most Palestinians have been kept behind walls for to many years. They would take peace over vengeance in a heart beat. I really believe strongly that peace would bring out the best of mankind.

[/quote]

I emphasize with Palestinians who want peace and freedom. They've been oppressed, sadly, by their own as much as anything the Israelis have done.

If, as you believe " I still believe 90% of Palestinians only want peace and be free",  then why:

(1) why does apparently a majority of palistinians support Hamas which wants to destry Israel,

(2) why did palistinians continually attack Israel when they were "occupied" by Jordan and Eqypt, rather than attack Jordan and Eqypt?

Based on THEIR ACTIONS, I believe a majority of palistinians want Israel destroyed, period.

//mjs

What do you mean "Israel has been flying over Syria for years....?"

Oh, I get it, you must be refering to Israel's destruction of Syria's nuclear reactor, just as Israel destroyed Saddam's reactor decades ago.

Personally, I supported and continue to support these actions by Israel.  Can I assume you don't?

 //mjs

ps - what about Syria's and Iran's essential occupation of Lebanon the past two decades?  

Mshimko,

I believe in hope and peace.  You seem to believe in neither.

[quote user="Hank"]Hey Mark,  I believe the Russians came rolling into Berlin .  We were a little late getting to Berlin.  Israel has been flying over Syria for years without a wink from the UN.  Why do you need tanks?[/quote]

Honestly, Hank...

1. The Soviets were the first, but not the only powers in Berlin.

2. At the Potsdam Conference, it was agreed that Germany would be divided into 4 zones of occupation. It was also agreed that the 4 powers would be uninhibited in Berlin, but the Soviets reneged on that.

3. Air power is a strategic and tactical weapon, but you cannot defeat an enemy from the air, you need to occupy the ground they hold, and armor is a critical component of any army of consequence.

4. It is clear that the facts of the history of Israel do not influence your opinions of the current circumstances in which the Israelis and Arabs find themselves. 

Mark 

Mark,

I was proud of Israel getting their independence in 1948. I would also be happy when the Palestinians finally get their right to return and get their own country. I believe both Israel and the Palestinians should live in peace.  I hope you feel the same way.?

There was a good show on "100 years of Terrorism" on History International a few days ago. The show started off with Irgun and the Stern Gang. Former members of these groups admitted they were terrorists, although they can't deny it with the  King David Hotel bombing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing and bombing of the British embassy in Rome. These groups had the approval of the Jewish population. A terrorist org can't exist without the help of the locals. That was shown when the founder of the Stern Gang lost his support. He was ratted out to the British, who then killed him.

"In July 2006, Israelis including former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former members of Irgun attended a 60th anniversary celebration of the bombing, which was organized by the Menachem Begin Centre. The British Ambassador in Tel Aviv and the Consul-General in Jerusalem dissented, saying "We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated." They also protested against an Israeli plaque that claims that people died because the British ignored warning calls, saying it was untrue and "did not absolve those who planted the bomb." The plaque read "For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated.” City officials agreed to slightly amend the wording on the plaque."

The old adage is true: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It depends on which side you're on.

Should we defend Israel militarily? No. It's not our fight. The American people would never vote to use our military in that manner. Unfortunately, it's not up to the American people. If the situation arose, it would be up to whomever is President. Vote accordingly.

ML