Please establish a forum for those who wish to discuss Vanguard funds without being bullied by those who call themselves Diehards.  They have made it clear that they think they should get to dictate the terms of the M* Vanguard Diehards forum and are rude to anyone who doesn't agree with them.

I think establishing another forum for those who just want to discuss Vanguard funds without having to agree with everything the Diehards say would be a nice option.

Thank you.

[quote user="Newsgrouper"]Can you give us an example of "being bullied by those who call themselves Diehards?"[/quote]

Oh for goodness sakes, you can't stand it that maybe there would be a forum about Vanguard funds that you can't control, can you?  What is wrong with you?

It's true that there's a small problem on the forum, but I don't know that we need a second Vanguard forum.

I've been communicating with Jerry ("Cudaman") and get the feeling that if we took the conflict offline for a few days we could work out a compromise.  Read HERE. 

Unfortunately, there a few "bad apples" at that forum that make it very difficult to post.  As said, I'm a long-time Vanguard customer.  Vanguard offers some excellent managed funds along with their famous index funds.  Once these managed funds are mentioned in a conversation, communication stops.

It's important for ALL Vanguard customers to feel welcomed there, not just those with a passive investing philosophy. 

We need to work as a team, not as adversaries. But, it's very difficult at present.

Norbert

It's true that there's a small problem on the forum, but I don't know that we need a second Vanguard forum.

I've been communicating with Jerry ("Cudaman") and get the feeling that if we took the conflict offline for a few days we could work out a compromise.  Read HERE. 

Unfortunately, there a few "bad apples" at that forum that make it very difficult to post.  As said, I'm a long-time Vanguard customer.  Vanguard offers some excellent managed funds along with their famous index funds.  Once these managed funds are mentioned in a conversation, communication stops.

It's important for ALL Vanguard customers to feel welcomed there, not just those with a passive investing philosophy. 

We need to work as a team, not as adversaries. But, it's very difficult at present.

Norbert

[/quote]

Hi Norbert -

I am not currently a Vanguard customer but am very interested in learning more about these funds to assist a much younger relative of mine who is interested in becoming one.  I think M* needs a second forum for those of us who simply want to learn/discuss Vanguard funds without having to subscribe to the Diehard's philosophy in order to post.  Given all the posts by/about people who think they are founders of that forum and get to dicate to others what they can post about and the attacks on those who don't have the same philosophy of investing, I don't see that as possible on the current forum.

I think M*.com would be well served by a second forum where people could ask/answer questions about Vanguard funds without all the nonsense that goes on on the current forum (that the Diehards act like they own).

A Simple Solution........

M* should just change the name of that forum to........ 'Vanguard Funds'!

--------------------------------

The message will come through real fast!

Taylor

A Simple Solution........

M* should just change the name of that forum to........ 'Vanguard Funds'!

--------------------------------

The message will come through real fast!

Taylor

[/quote]

That is certainly a possibility if M* intended the current forum to be about Vanguard funds vs. about Diehards.  I really don't know what M* intended that forum to be about.  If the forum is supposed to be about the Diehards, then having 2 forums would be nice.  If it is supposed to be about Vanguard Funds, then I think that changing the name would work fine.

Why don't you just use the Mutual Funds forum to ask your questions about Vanguard if you do not feel comfortable on the Diehard's forum?

It appears to me that Vanguard related topics get good (and civil) coverage on the Mutual funds forum.

 http://socialize.morningstar.com/NewSocialize/forums/thread/2507644.aspx

helmut 

Why don't you just use the Mutual Funds forum to ask your questions about Vanguard if you do not feel comfortable on the Diehard's forum?

[/quote]

Why don't they just eliminate all the forums devoted to specific fund families and let everyone post on the Mutual Funds forum about all mutual funds then?  There is a reason that separate forums were set up for different fund families; I will leave you to figure out what it is.

It would be nice if Vanguard had its own forum like Fidelity, American, etc. have.  If the Diehards forum was intended to be a Vanguard forum, then a name change would help to express that.

[quote user="Newsgrouper"]Can you give us an example of "being bullied by those who call themselves Diehards?"[/quote]

Oh for goodness sakes, you can't stand it that maybe there would be a forum about Vanguard funds that you can't control, can you?  What is wrong with you?

[/quote]

KCallie: I asked a simple question giving you the opportunity to make a reasoned argument.  You chose to write a non-responsive and glib reply.  After looking at some of your other posts I should not have been surprised.

KCallie: I asked a simple question giving you the opportunity to make a reasoned argument.  You chose to write a non-responsive and glib reply.  After looking at some of your other posts I should not have been surprised.

[/quote]

Talk about nonresponsive - your post failed to address my point and then launched into more attacks.

KCallie: I asked a simple question giving you the opportunity to make a reasoned argument.  You chose to write a non-responsive and glib reply.  After looking at some of your other posts I should not have been surprised.

[/quote]

Talk about nonresponsive - your post failed to address my point and then launched into more attacks.

[/quote]

KCallie: The help you need cannot be found in financial forums. 

Mel is being completely honest with all that visit this forum thinking that PASSIVE vs managed investors are equals when it comes to building a portfolio.

.............................

Actually, Tim, the name of this forum is "Vanguard Diehards", and the forum description that M* applied to this forum starts out "Bogleheads unite...", since its focus is investing at Vanguard in the manner espoused by Jack Bogle.

Finally, diehards.org is an entry portal to both Diehards forums (M* and Bogleheads).

Regards,

Mel

I feel a new forum of VANGUARD FUND FAMILY would eleminate many of the problems we now have on this forum. A perfect example would be that the Diehards would be able to claim that the 'new' was based on Bogle's thinking.

I'm sure the passive investors would join in many of the conversation if we had a new forum, if for any reason than to intercept the new investors, but they would have the claim that Mel presently claims on this forum.  I surely wouldn't be posting on this forum, unless I was seeking information relating to passive investing.......no more than I would post on the Boglehead forum with questions that I have presented on recent threads.

Take care

Tim

One year, I decided I needed a support group and tried attending two different groups.

 At the first group, one person described their "problem" and the other group members could barely restrain themselves from jumping in and telling the first person exactly how to solve their problem.  I found this very uncomfortable.

At the second group, one person shared what was going on in their life, then a second person shared what was going on in their life, etc.  There was a "no crosstalk" rule which meant that it was forbidden for anyone to directly address another person's problem and attempt to tell them what to do.

 So, if you couldn't respond directly, what were you allowed to do?  If you wished, you could share an experience from your own life which might or might not be relevant to the first person's story.  Something like: my mother was an alcoholic too.  Here's how it affected me and how I tried to cope with it.

 
When I post, I try to share my personal experiences without telling anyone else that they're wrong and I'm right, using words like "I once did..." instead of "You should..."

 
I try to learn by "listening" and resist the temptation to post my own profound thoughts on every subject.  I mostly post when I feel I have knowledge or experience which may be of interest to others reading the thread (not just the original poster).
 

One year, I decided I needed a support group and tried attending two different groups.

[/quote]

Thanks, but this isn't a support group for recovering alcoholics, battered wives, etc.  It is an investment forum where people are trying to learn/share ideas about how to make money.  There is a group of posters on the Vanguard Diehards who are rude, think they know everything about investing and think they should get to dictate what can and cannot get posted on the M* Vanguard Diehards forum.

If that is M* intent - to have a board that can be ruled by this group of posters - fine, but my request is for a board that is simply about Vanguard funds, not about the Diehards.

"I am not currently a Vanguard customer but am very interested in learning more about these funds to assist a much younger relative of mine who is interested in becoming one.  I think M* needs a second forum for those of us who simply want to learn/discuss Vanguard funds without having to subscribe to the Diehard's philosophy in order to post.  "

KCallie,

I'm a vanguard customer, I lurk on the vanguard diehards board, occasionally post there.  Unless it became one of those 100+ postings, I don't recall the thread where you started this line of inquiry.  Can you post a link here for us to follow along?

 Best,

Phillygoat

KCallie,

I'm a vanguard customer, I lurk on the vanguard diehards board, occasionally post there.  Unless it became one of those 100+ postings, I don't recall the thread where you started this line of inquiry.  Can you post a link here for us to follow along?

Best,

Phillygoat

[/quote]

I am so turned off by the rudeness of the diehards that I won't be posting there, capice????   I bet I am not the only person who is turned off by them.

Do you think posting "Best" disguises the sarcastic tone of your post?  It doesn't in case you were wondering.

Ditto Norbert

 If we really are All in this Investing game together and we all have about the same objectives? I could care less who recommends what, just as long as it beats the others for the past 8 & 10 yrs...

I Wish it could all be VG's Index Funds or there other funds, but unfortunately, this has been the case..

and just think, what If? There weren't that many AMF's out there to compete?                Like it was in the early days, when it was either VG or Fido?

Competition works..

And it's ok if the Fed privatizes our SS and Puts that $ in Index Funds..which It looks would be better than what we've had all these yrs adn especially if we get to Keep the Principal as well..and pass it onto our Kids and charities...

Can Only hope..

Peace!

"but my request is for a board that is simply about Vanguard funds, not about the Diehards.   And it's not a support group either..."

IMO?

1. I don't think even having a Vanguard Funds  Board would Do it, too many Diehards and VG advocates in gneral would still interveen in there.. ( much like in the other fund family Boards, that have failed , due in part to not abusing Non-compliant fund people )

2. Maybe it's also due to Those Fund families have People that do this?  or Advocates that own those funds, don't want people to own other Competing funds and thus reduce their Values in their Funds? And don't think there aren't ...

3. Support Group? Not.. This is About $ and all bets are off by just about everyone.. Be they Day traders to LT buyers.. Influencing one's investments is the name of the game for alot of them...not to mention to feed their ego's... They Are NOT your Friends , looking out for your best interest..as warned by M* ... Ie: Always be suspect, etc..and do your own Research routine...

If looking For a Support group? suggest you locate one in your community that you can Actually Go participate with, In Person and Actualy Meet those people, then if they give wrong adivce? You can Slap them in the face! or at the least , embarrass them enough to leave the group....LOL

and many of those groups have "plants" in them as well...As reported in an Article a couple of yrs ago...with Insurance backgrounds to Actual Brokerage conections..

"Anytime there is $ invovled? Nothing is Safe or Sacred.. It's whom can steal it and not get caught routine.."  The Cable Guy..

I note the deafening silence from M*.

Don

Morningstar and POPE Mel are   big buddies.

I agree that they should change the  name of the diehards forum to just "VANGUARD FUNDS'. I thought when they started the  Bogleheads forum that  the Morningstar forum would get back to normal, but  the same people still want to run both sites.

I have been invested in Vanguard Funds for  26 years, mostly managed funds and have done quite well with  them.  I like to discuss managed  funds, but I wouldn't dare on  the Diehards or Bogleheads.The people we're talking about should take some lessons from Taylor. He is a real gentlemen and never rude to anyone.

Listen up Morningstar.

Thank you everyone for your feedback. My main hesitation in setting up a new Vanguard forum is that it may not generate enough traffic to stand on its own. Recent posts have shown that a variety of opinions can be expressed on the Vanguard Diehards forum, and that, more specifically, the forum's focus is not just index investing. For example, rpetrocelli has authored many threads with an active-investing focus that have prompted good discussions.

For those occasions when folks get out of hand, I believe flagging the post for moderation is appropriate.  This will allow us to get at the root of the problem and restore civility. In my experience, it isn't the discussion of active versus passive investing that requires moderation, rather it is when people turn to ad hominem attacks to support their argument. If you remove the latter, you are left with some solid discussions that everyone benefits from.

Thanks,

M*_Darrin 

M*_ Darrin

Thanks for your reply. At least we know you are listining and you are probably  right. Would you at least  consider dropping the Diehards name and just call it the  Vanguard Funds..

I know you have a tough job trying satisfy everyone.

The Vanguard Diehards name is a landmark, referred to in print and web.  I wouldn't want to change it for fear of confusing new visitors.

Thanks,

M*_Darrin 

Since I was called out by name in this thread, I'll add a few comments. Courtesy in the manner of posting goes a long way towards facilitating exchange of ideas in an environment that welcomes all posters. We should all (including myself) pause to reflect on how our manner of posting is perceived by others.

I've always viewed the Vanguard Diehards site as a special place. The divisiveness referred to in this thread need not be. I believe it will ultimately destroy that which has been a historic landmark. I've continued to post there in hopes that it would return to its former glory. I sometimes think it will not happen. There's a post tonight that, out of the blue, takes a venomous shot at un-named participants on that board. I honestly don't understand why.

Speaking for myself, I believe all posters are welcome on that board, regardless of investing beliefs. It's the manner of posting that results in issues referred to in this thread. Some there will demand supporting evidence for stated beliefs. And rightly so. After all, the purpose of the forum is to help investors who choose to DIY find their way.

Just some thoughts.

Jerry

For example, rpetrocelli has authored many threads with an active-investing focus that have prompted good discussions.

M*_Darrin,

Bad example. petrocelli has extremely thick skin and is willing to endure attacks from fanatical diehards. He is the exception. [As you already know, he has even been tracked down at his job and one diehard tried to get him fired.]

Most people are not willing to subject themselves to that kind of abuse. I for one will rarely post there anymore and since I am interested only in Vanguard funds, I rarely post anywhere.


 

KCallie

Your problem is already solved. The group you are talking about has left the Diehard Forum. They are now the Boggleheads and have their own  forum. The Diehard forum is getting back like it used to be . You can now discuss all Vanguard funds without someone jumping down your throat. Hope you'll come try it out again. I remember seeing you on the Diehard Forum a lot and hope you'll come back.

M*Darrin,

I think you should  remove the  name" Boggleheads" from the  Diehards  Forum since they have left  the diehards and formed their own  Bogglehead  Forum. They are now two complete seperate forums.