We have been tossing with this idea for past year. With Real estate declining we are tempted to diversify our portfolio of mainly MF+cash. However after 20% down, there is negative cash flow of $8000 per year(about $700/month).Although rental market is strong,and we will build equity over long term, we are little nervous about negative cash flow and other "headaches" of being a "landlord". As far as tax purpose can we deduct mortgage interest and property tax from investment property?
Thanks

Raj

Originally posted in thread: 586

Yes, you can deduct mortgage interest and property taxes from an investment property, as well as depreciation. Just like repairs and maintenance, these are business expenses. My wife has a single family home she rents as an investment. Fortunately, the rent just covers her out of pocket expenses, except when a big repair happens, like having to replace the central A/C this month.

Originally posted in thread: 586

I strongly discourage you from buying any property with negative cash flow.

For a property to be attractive, IMO, you should be able to cashflow the property with a 15-year fixed loan. Be sure to have allowances in your plan for maintenance costs, HOA dues, PITI, vacancies, advertising expense.

Duane

Originally posted in thread: 586

Buy a house instead, even in a lower income area.

Condos are VERY risky...the main reason being that, generally speaking, HOUSES depreciate, except in high-interest times, but THE LAND THE HOUSES SIT ON appreciate.

When you buy a house on a piece of land, the "house" you think will appreciate in 10 years. Actually, the land appreciate more than the house, although you don't know that, since you buy or sell them together.

When you buy a condo, you are buying part of a structure. That part can be affected by so many things beyond your control....like neighbors, the home association, structural damage caused by others, etc. You are not, remember, buying any land. When you buy a condo, ALL you are buying that part of a structure, so anything that affects it is critical to its value.

When you buy a house on a piece of land, what happens to the structure of the house is more under your control. And even if the house's structure suffers damage, the value of the land is unaffected by that.

So...it's far less risky to buy a house on a piece of land as an investment than a condo.

(P.S.....It's also more difficult to sell a condo than a house. Sure, they sell. And sure, someone will always know someone who sold one quickly. But there's just a far smaller market for buyers of condos than buyers of houses.)

(A.P.S.....Don't underestimate the cost of the homeowners' association fee. This is beyond the condo owner's control. Sure, it provides a value. But when you own a home, if you want to pull back on maintenance costs for a month or two, you can. You have no suchoption in a condo. Also, you have no control over what the association pays for its grounds maintenance, etc. When you own a home, you can shop around and hire a less expensive lawn service, for example.)

Originally posted in thread: 586

The only thing you listed is negatives for condos and positive for houses

How about the other way around

- As a condo owner you don't have to worry about removing the snow. Big deal for older couples that don't have the energy to shovel anymore. The snow storm ended, and you go out and your area is nice and cleaned, already taking care of courtesy of the homeowner association

- You don't have to worry about taking care of the garden. Once again a big deal if you don't have the time to cut the grass and plant flowers. With today hectic life, that could be a big deal

- As a condo owner, you don't have to worry about maintenance the outside walls of your place. That's a big deal when your roof brakes and you don't pay for repairs, for instance... Owing a house you are responsible for ALL repairs done to your property

There are other advantages...

The bottom line is that there are advantages and disadvantages in owning a condo vs. a house. If you don't care about being totally responsible for all repairs done in your property, if you don't care about taking care of the gardens, if you don't care about removing the snow from your property, then a house is your best bet, otherwise wooing a condo is not that bad of a deal. Again, depends what you're looking for

Originally posted in thread: 586

Are you open to something different? Find yourself a commercial realtor and look into commercial properties. The down payment is usually higher, but the cash flow tends to be much better.

Originally posted in thread: 586

How did you arrive at rule of 15 yr fixed mortgage to manage cash flow? It is impossible to find a property at this price in our area(Long Island NY)

Raj

Originally posted in thread: 586

That is my own rule of thumb. I should have mentioned that I would personally finance with a 30-year fixed, but be able to pay at the 15-year rate (after all allowances mentioned above, like vacancies, maintenance, etc). This offers some margin of safety in case rents drop.

Again, these are my own rules of thumb. You are free to make up your own. Lots of people buy property with negative cash flow, but not me. If you can't find a property with decent cash flow, buy some nice blue-chip stocks or REITs.

Duane

Originally posted in thread: 586

You'll be sharing a wall with another unit, hope you have nice neighbors. You will also have a homeowners association to work with, have heard horror stories about them. Before buying, talk to neighbors living around you. Talk to more then just one or two.
All the money, savings or value will mean nothing if you have people living around you that are problems. Visit the place at different times of the day.

Originally posted in thread: 586

How about investing in pre-construction condo unit? At least with the new construction, I will avoid extra repair/fixing costs. However downside is paying high property taxes for the new unit.

Raj

Originally posted in thread: 586

You'll be sharing a wall with another unit, hope you have nice neighbors

A friend of mine who has a house with 3 acres land had major problems with his neighbor, guess about what? About a dog...
John, you're the perfect example how some facts can be twisted to prove your point. To me, condo or house, if you have a bad neighbor, you'll have to deal the same way

Originally posted in thread: 586

1. Own a Single Family Home or a Town Home
2. In a High End Community..not a poor to moderate one
Or one that is changing from Poor to Middle class is best
3. Renters are the key... You can loose profits if your place sits empty 2-3 mos and take alot of work and money to fix them back up if have bad renters
4. You can't Discriminate as much as used to be able to some 20 yrs ago.. but can if you know the tricks..
5. Better have a Good Real Estate Agent experienced in it and a RE Lawyer for picking their brains
6. Rent $100 mo below going rate... inturn they will fix little things and improve the place>.. Landscaping, etc..
7.Rent to break even, which includes Mortgage/Taxes/Ave $100mo for Maintenance ( or 1% value of place a yr)
8. Forget Foreclosers.. most are in Poor Neighborhoods, your place can be the neicest place, but not if the neighborhood is Full of Low lifes

Go for the Equity growth /value.. Mine is in a Very nice neighboorhood, was blue collar when bought it and now High End and has APY over 8% yr for past 25 yrs
After it's paid for? ( 15 yr mort), it's been wonderfull... should have bought 2-3 more of them
( Townhomes)....at $57k in 1980, now worth over $300k

Some of my buddies bought townhomes and lease them out to local Corporations for their Families comming in...
Called Corporate Homes

Hope this helps

Originally posted in thread: 586

No way with a negaTIVE CASH FLOW. Why have the other potential pitfalls if not a positive cash flow. And are you sure it mill appreciate? Don't assume it will. .Rich

Originally posted in thread: 586

My wife and I have a condo as an investment.  Negative cash flow is certain death. I purchased it at the point of  zero  cash flow during the boom and was criticized for doing  so at the time.  Do I  regret  it.  Absolutely not.   The reason I hold on  to it ?   My son  will not be able to afford  his own house.   The family  has this condo in a trust.   Can I get by without the positive cash flow .  Yes.   Will I pay off the mortgage when I sell my business.  Yes.  Why ?  The only way to posess assets is to acquire them and hold onto them.  In the long run being tricky about predicting the future and optimizing the preformance of investmenst is an illusion. Buy it, hold onto it, and live your life. 
When something doesnt cost you to hold  posession of it  , thats good.   When  you buy  a lemon, admit it and move on.  The same can be said about Mutual Funds.

 

Sorry, I don't pay much attention to my keystrokes.  "On to" vs onto, "cash flow" vs cashflow. (investments)

Happy hunting.

 

Most likely not a very good way to invest, although it could be. Like any other kind of investment, you've got to do your homework.

Bottom line: The present value of your future net sale of the condo (selling price less closing costs) must exceed the present value of all cash flows, where an expense payment is negative and a rent collected is positive. Your discount rate should be your expected investment rate of return over that time period....say 7.5%.

For the former to be greater than the latter, you'd have to average 6-9% appreciation in the condo's value per year, depending, of course, on the timing and amount of expense and length of holding period. During red-hot housing markets, this is entirely possible. The rest of the time, it generally isn't.

And are mortgage interest and property taxes deductible. Yes. But will this make any difference to you? Perhaps not.

If you passively (not actively) manage the property, the IRS will require you to treat the condo rental as if it were a hobby. That is, your expenses are deductible only to the extent of your revenue (collected rent)...and the first expenses you've got to use are mortgage interest and property taxes, which if these exceed rents collected, means you wouldn't be able to deduct maintenance, travel, utilities or other out of pocket expenses you'd be making. Take a look at the IRS description of passive activity losses at

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=146326,00.html

BruceM

If somehing needs work and the HOA doesn't have enough to fund it

They'll make a "special assessment".

You have to pay it as do all in the Condo Assn...

If that weren't true... your ?investment? might become worth less...

 

Another worry is the HOA's power to ban renting the condo.  They can do that on a community wide basis, at least in my state.  They have to get a certain number of votes, but usually abstentions count as aye's because HOA meetings habitually couldn't make quorum any other way.

 If this happened, you'd be grandfathered in as to the current renters.  But as soon as they leave, your condo is now worthless as a rental property.  This happened to me on the condo I lived in before I got married.

 Comico