Hello Tim,

Consider that I don't believe this forum (i.e., Chin, Mel, etc...) is inflexible to the managed fund line of discussion. I think managed funds can have a place in one's portfolio. And I do believe the subject is worth debating. I for one have always been interested in the subject. I say let the debates go where they will. Maybe we all stand to learn something from that debate, no? After all, none of us can forsee the future. It's a question of where to play the odds as I see it. We're all dead in so many years anyway. So I say "Let 'er rip" and why not? :-)

Regards,
Jerry 

KCallie:

Who died and bequeathed these boards to Mel?

KCallie - You may want to consider that Mel and Taylor created this forum. Your credentials are espousing market timing from what I've seen. There may be debate as to what this board represents, but market timing it does not. While the OP may have some disagreement, you are clearly in the wrong forum.

Jerry

cudaman:

You may want to consider that Mel and Taylor created this forum. Your credentials are espousing market timing from what I've seen. There may be debate as to what this board represents, but market timing it does not.

First, we paid M* - not Mel or Taylor - for our memberships.  It's M*'s forum.  Start your own forum if you are unhappy  ...  oh, you already did? 

I consider this a place to focus on Vanguard's funds: all of them, not just your personal favorites. 

What part of the phrase " for all Vanguard customers" don't you understand? 

Some of Vanguard's funds are actively managed.  "Actively managed" simply means that a person or persons are using other criteria besides market cap to make investment decisions.  Little things like profitability, growth potential, competitiveness, price, etc.

Ironically, indexers use market cap for their investment decisions.   When Intel's and Amazon's stock went ballistic back in 2000, your indexes bought more of it. 

That's market timing!  Just not smart market timing.

---

I put posters on "Ignore" only if they are rude or disingenuous - not because we disagree. 

norbertc:

cudaman:

You may want to consider that Mel and Taylor created this forum. Your credentials are espousing market timing from what I've seen. There may be debate as to what this board represents, but market timing it does not.

First, we paid M* - not Mel or Taylor - for our memberships.  It's M*'s forum.  Start your own forum if you are unhappy  ...  oh, you already did? 

I consider this a place to focus on Vanguard's funds: all of them, not just your personal favorites.

Some of Vanguard's funds are actively managed.  "Actively managed" simply means that a person or persons are using other criteria besides market cap to make investment decisions.  Things like profitability, growth potential, competitiveness, price, etc.

Indexers use market cap for their investment decisions.   When Intel's and Amazon's stock went ballistic back in 2000, your indexes bought more of it.  That's market timing! Just not smart market timing.

---

I put posters on "Ignore" only if they are rude or disingenuous - not because we disagree. 

So Norbert, you and KCallie are one and the same? Interesting. Oh, and did I say I was unhappy? No, you said that I believe. I made my position clear when I reponded to Tim I think. You seem very defensive on managed funds. I don't think I attacked the concept except to say that debate should be encouraged. Forget the fact that I think you are wrong. You are out of line.

Jerry

Jerry,

"So Norbert, you and KCallie are one and the same? Interesting."

What are you talking about?

"You seem very defensive on managed funds."

Actually, I'm open to all types of investing. It's certain "Diehards" that seem to have a problem with not representing ALL Vanguard customers on this forum.

"You are out of line."

You appear to be unclear on the point that it's not for you to judge.  In fact, statements like this indicate that you are "out of line".

Well Norbert, that was a somewhat civil response so let's discuss.

norbertc:

"So Norbert, you and KCallie are one and the same? Interesting."

What are you talking about?

You take my quote in response to KCallie upon which to base your entire post. I can only assume you are one and the same. I could be wrong of course but your approach was striking.

norbertc:

"You seem very defensive on managed funds."

Actually, I'm open to all types of investing. It's certain "Diehards" that seem to have a problem with not representing ALL Vanguard customers on this forum.

I'm glad you are open to all types of investing. I read your posts saying the opposite. Yes, Diehards have their beliefs and I am one. No one here has stated managed funds do not have a place. They only ask for rational supporting that position. You offer no method by which to identify which fund manager will outperform the index. So your argument has no teeth.

norbertc:

"You are out of line."

You appear to be unclear on the point that it's not for you to judge.  In fact, statements like this indicate that you are "out of line".

When you attack my position that was clearly stated in this thread without cause, I think it is fair for me to judge and I will state that judgement. You would do the same.

And while I didn't catch your revised post in the quote "What part of the phrase 'for all Vanguard customers' don't you understand?", there was nothing in what I posted to warrant that statement. Yes I believe indexing is the best approach, but my statement to Tim encouraging debate on the topic doesn't support such an arrogant question, does it? 

As in an earlier thread, I suggest we agree to disagree. But if need be, I'll stay at this keyboard all night long if you wish.

Regards,
Jerry

Jerry,

Well, it's already 11 am here, but I have to go the train station in a few minutes.

You are welcome to discuss "passive investing" on this forum.  Vanguard is famous for its index funds.  So, it's obviously not a problem.  You just need to remember that Vanguard is also known for some top quality managed funds. 

It is certainly a reasonable strategy to construct a diversified portfolio that includes index funds.  You need to be clear, however, that index funds also "time the market" since they typically use market cap to weight company holdings.  Managed funds simply use additional criteria besides market cap.  The two approaches are actually not totally different. 

Personally, I question the use of market cap as a primary criteria for stock selection.  I don't think that size = market.  But, that's just my call.

In terms of choosing specific managed funds for a diversified portfolio, for me it's a little like picking athletes for the Olympics or like picking a tennis tournament winner.  You consider past performance, current fitness, health, interviews, performance consistency, teamwork, etc.

For mutual fund investors, there's past performance relative to benchmark, bear market performance, shareholder letters, M* ratings and analysis, interviews, etc.  Obviously famous investors like Buffett, Heebner, or McGregor can make mistakes and may one day "lose their touch".  But when these guys manage to outperform year after year, I give them some credit.  I choose to invest in their funds.  That's my call.

Looking at global funds recently, I observed that a terrific Vanguard fund VHGEX has outperformed global indexes and most other mutual fund company funds for a long time.  I was disappointed by the highly defensive reaction by certain DHs to my praise for a Vanguard fund. 

This example demonstrates the core of the problem, as far as I'm concerned.

Off to the station ... 

Fair enough for now Norbert. It's 5:30 A.M. here and I'm supposed to be at work by 8.

Jerry