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Active/Passive - Marriage or Mishmash?
pkcrafter 04-17-2008, 4:46 PM | Post #2509224 |  23 Replies
1  

Thought I might see what the HO people think of this.

ETFs, what are they? Are they index funds, active funds, both or neither? I don't think they qualify as true index funds because they aren't cap weighted, but they aren't managed either, so are they neutral ground where active and passing investors can both be satisfied?

Another article from Index Universe. This one from Robert Arnott:

Indexing in Inefficient Markets 

Excerpt from the conclusion:

Yet, unlike active managers, the Fundamental Index strategy maintains the broad coverage, high capacity, and low fees reflecting the positives of index implementation.

So, it is clear that Mr. Arnott does believe ETFs are actively managed.

Paul 

 

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Capitalization-weighted vs. Fundamental Indexing
mgfreema 04-19-2008, 10:39 PM | Post #2509838
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Let's use the S&P 500 as a model for a capitalization-weighted index.

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The S&P 500 index was developed in the late 1950s. It superseded an earlier S&P index that had 90 stocks.

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The change was made possible because of an increase in the computing power at the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) and the American Stock Exchange (ASE). In the late 1950s, the NYSE and ASE computers became capable of tracking an index composed of 500 stocks throughout the day. The reason these computers could do this was because the index was capitalization-weighted: All the computers had to do was multiple the total outstanding shares for each stock by their current prices, sum the results, then divide that result by a divisor. Even the old IBM 360s that were prevalent at the time could do that as rapidly as the human operators could update the punch cards.

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And so the capitalization-weighted index became a standard for indexing.

 

In the early 1970s Wells Fargo created a pool of stocks based on the S&P 500 index. Wells Fargo offered the pool (kind of like today's mutual funds) to institutional investors. Because the Wells Fargo pool was S&P 500 index based, it gave institutional investors an easy way to meet the "prudent man" and "legal list" criteria (and laws) of the time at a minimal cost. This further solidified capitalization-weighted indexing.

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Jack Bogle picked up on Wells Fargo’s idea, and sold the concept to the general public. That planted the idea of capitalization-weighted indexing in the minds of average citizens/investors.

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Consider that, during the entire time that capitalization-weighted indexing has been sold as the “best” possible investment medium for both institutional and individual investors, all reputable business and finance schools have been teaching that another criteria actually determines the value (and ultimately the price) of stocks and other assets.

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Starting with Graham & Dodd's Security Analysis in 1934, and James C. Bonbright's The Valuation of Property in 1937, every single reputable business and finance school has been teaching that free cash flow (i.e., ability of a business -- or any asset -- to provide a dividend or return to the owners) is what determines the value (and ultimately the price) of an asset.

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Capitalization-weighted indexing and fundamental indexing are mutually exclusive: Either one believes that whatever stock or asset people are currently throwing the most money at is the stock or asset in which one should be invested (capitalization-weighted indexing); or one believes that in the long run free cash flow will determine the price of the stock or asset (free cash flow-based fundamental indexing).

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Even though the idea that free cash flow (i.e., return to the owners of the asset) is an old, well-established valuation concept, converting that concept into an index is quite new. Needless to say, the capitalization-weighted indexing fraternity is fighting fundamental indexing tooth and nail.

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I have no idea if the current fundamental indexes truly reflect the concept of free cash flow to the owners. However, I can say that anyone who disagrees with fundamental indexing (insofar as it represents free cash flow available to the owners) in general, is taking the position that what is being taught in every reputable business and finance school in the country (world?) since the 1930s is wrong.

 

Mike

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Re: Capitalization-weighted vs. Fundamental Indexing
mgfreema 04-19-2008, 10:47 PM | Post #2509843
0  

I have no idea what happened to the formatting of my post. I had a blank line between paragraphs. I've tried to edit it three times to no avail. I hope you can read through the weird formatting Morningstar created and see my separate points.

 Mike

After applying Susan's excellent suggestion (see below) it looks much better!

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Re: Capitalization-weighted vs. Fundamental Indexing
Lennyz 04-19-2008, 10:48 PM | Post #2509844
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Mike,

 

You are right on.  Fundametal metrics work most of the time(time Frame) Momentum trading short term.  PLASIDUABLE TIME FRAME FOREWARD LOOKING

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Mike
rascfw 04-20-2008, 6:51 AM | Post #2509880
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I don't know what it is about this new software, but that sometimes happens to me, too.

How to fix your paragraph/spacing? Go back to your excellent post above and hit the edit button. When your post pops into the Message box, first hit the Preview button to see which paragraphs' spacing has failed.

Go back to Compose and place a simple period/dot... you know "." in the line you want to keep blank as a space between each of your paragraphs.

If you want to make it slightly less noticeable, simply move your "." to varying spots along your blank lines.

To give you an actual example, I have tried to do the same to this post. Unfortunately, it appears that this stupid system won't let me. Instead, check my post for our HO Contest YTD returns for 3/31/08 --my post is the eighth one down. They're not real obvious, but the "." are there. Where there's a will, there's a way!

Hurry, Mike --you've still got time to fix it.

Regards,

Susan

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Re: Capitalization-weighted vs. Fundamental Indexing
rascfw 04-20-2008, 7:48 AM | Post #2509887
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Excellent, excellent post, Mike! I wish you'd write a book. This type of knowledge is acquired only if those who know share it with the rest of the world.

I have never really been that thrilled with cap-weighted indexes. Probably because it makes absolutely no sense to me. They're like a portfolio allocation gone amuck. How do you fix a portfolio allocation that's out of whack? By rebalancing it, by fixing the flat tire. It seems that that is what a fundamental index offers to the indexing world.

Now I'll show my total ignorance here, but I don't care. You don't learn if you don't ask. For Mike and Paul and anyone else who has something to share...

  • Can you give examples of all of the different types of fundamental indexes now available to investors? Equal-weighted, dividend-oriented... what else?
  • Who are the pioneers in offering fundamental indexes to investors? Powershares? iShares? Another possible, FirstTrust? WisdomTree and Rydex are more recent converts, I believe.
  • Can you give us a link to an unbiased website or article that discusses the practical application of fundamental indexing more thoroughly?
  • Is there a white paper that addresses the pros and cons of fundamental indexing?

It may sound hilarious, I also found it helpful to review the basics at Wikipedia.com.

Thanks, Mike --and thank you, too, Paul.

Regards,

Susan

P.S. I told you that I'd sound dumb, but how the heck do you learn anything if you don't just ASK?

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The difference is fundamental
rascfw 04-20-2008, 8:12 AM | Post #2509895
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Don't you just love this ad? I found it on the Research Affiliates website. I think a picture is worth 1,000 words but, unfortunately, it wouldn't let me copy'n paste it here.

Regards,

Susan

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Re: Capitalization-weighted vs. Fundamental Indexing
glallen 04-20-2008, 9:39 AM | Post #2509924
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Mike; FYI

You are a little off on your computer history time line. The IBM 360 family of computers was first announced in 1964 and the first one to ship to a customer was in 1965. However, it is nice to see that someone besides me remembers those 80 column punched cards.

Gordon

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Re: Capitalization-weighted vs. Fundamental Indexing
pkcrafter 04-20-2008, 9:55 AM | Post #2509930
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Ohhhh, Mike, you are opening the ol' can-o-worms -- efficient markets.

I don't want to get into it, but you make is sound like the original tracking index was created because it was easiest. Actually Wells Fargo had a very hard time running that index. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the index creators simply looked at the stock market profile and tried to copy it. The profile of the market is the result of where investors as a group have put their money. That's where the EMH comes in. If investors felt that the #100 stock is worth putting more money into, that stock would move up the list and the price would not make sense based on the fundamentals.

As you know, the EMH folks claim that the cap-weighted total stock market index is the most efficient way to invest.  I'm not going to claim that, and certainly there is a lot of validity in Grahams beliefs and many investors follow his ideas. However, those investors and fund managers buying on value are contributing to the overall market profile. But at the same time, so are the speculators. There is plently of historical evidence that value wins out about half the time and growth (driven mostly by speculation) wins half the time. Those who choose to invest in the total market just accept whatever the market does.

Most of the ETFs I've seen try to lean toward Graham's value ideas in one way or another, but they also increase the holdings in smaller stocks. When these things are done, the investor is implicitly saying that the market consensus about the value of a stock is wrong. 

Again, I'm not arguing that value investing is not a good way to invest, I'm just trying to explain.  There is also a lot of evidence that value stocks and small stocks provide a return premium over the market, so it would be reasonable to expect a fund or portfolio that invested this way to outperform the market in the long term. Indexers handle this by slice and dice which allows them to just add more value and more small cap funds. They also claim they can do this much cheaper than buying a fundamental index.

One thing we will find with many of the ETFs that are value and small tilted is that they have been created in a time period where value and especially small have been very productive. But small is volatile and outperformance is on, off. And it can be off for more than a few years. When that happens, a lot of ETFs are not going to look so attractive and the industry will put out growth tilted ETFs to capture investors money.   

Susan, I'm not fully up to speed on ETFs, but I must admit I do admire Rob Arnott's sensible approach. By the way, Arnott's personal family money is invested in index funds.

Far too many ETFs are simply trying to capture todays hot money and I don't even bother looking at them. And there is an awful lot of hype that wisdomtree keeps putting out which doesn't say much for content.

 

Paul 

 

 

 

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